A few doubts about a new character concept

[Ali Akabba]

No, it's not because new PCs now get an XP boost in the beginning; I was already thinking about a new one before knowing anything about it.

Anyway, my idea has to do with a ranger that dabbles a little bit in the arcane arts. I want to do it right from the start, but I have a couple of doubts:

1) In order to cast spells, is a ranger restricted to worshiping deities associated to nature? I didn't find this information clearly stated anywhere either in the forums or in the server's homepage. For example, consider a ranger that follows Tymora, or Tyr (deities with no clear ties to nature); would he be able to cast spells? If the restriction applies, is Corellon Larethian considered a nature deity for this porpose?

There is an RP side to this question: although rangers need to have patron deities to gain spells, they are not clerics (or druids, for that matter). Therefore, it doesn't seem to me that they have, RP-wise, to be fanatical about their faiths. They have to be sincere followers to gain a deity's favour, of course, but don't need to be zealots like clerics and paladins. Correct me if I'm wrong.

2) I'm toying with the possibility of making him a ranger/bard, with no points whatsoever in the Perform skill. Of course, I could take sorcerer levels instead, but the bard is more roguish in nature and seems more akin to the ranger class, which also has a roguish side. This raises the following question: how weird would it be a bard that can't sing? Or, maybe, one that is just a very poor singer (I could put just one point in Perform for that, heh). The point is that the Bardic Song is related to a skill, not a granted ability, and thus is given as a player's choice to be pursued or not. So, there's nothing wrong about a bard being a poor singer; it's a possible character concept just like any other one. Or is this idea, well, too weird?

I could even consider playing a ranger/bard without both the ranger's spells and the bard's song. He would be all about something else. Again: does this sound odd?

(For those that met him before, this is intended to be a kind of remake of Ruban; I want to make a similar character, but better polished, so to speak. And take the ranger's path, not the fighter's one.)

[TheRingBearer]

1) Rangers must have a nature patron deity to cast Ranger spells. He can (if you take other classes) cast arcane spells.
Rangers might not be the most "hardcore" of followers, but I think that the degree you RP their faith is open for for interpretation. You could play a Ranger with the zeal of a paladin or something more passive. Although I'll leave this up for the other rangers to fully answer.


2) There are many other kinds of bards as well. Storytellers which make you relive that epic heroic battle, acrobatics which can back flip around like crazy, or simply play the musical instrument while you let someone else do the singing. Although perform is only tied to Bard Song in game, in DnD perform is much more generic...

PERFORM (CHA)
Like Craft, Knowledge, and Profession, Perform is actually a number of separate skills.
You could have several Perform skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.
Each of the nine categories of the Perform skill includes a variety of methods, instruments, or techniques, a small list of which is provided for each category below.
• Act (comedy, drama, mime)
• Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
• Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
• Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
• Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
• Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
• String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
• Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet)
• Sing (ballad, chant, melody)
Check: You can impress audiences with your talent and skill.
Perform DC Performance
10 Routine performance. Trying to earn money by playing in public is essentially begging. You can earn 1d10 cp/day.
15 Enjoyable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d10 sp/day.
20 Great performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d10 sp/day. In time, you may be invited to join a professional troupe and may develop a regional reputation.
25 Memorable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d6 gp/day. In time, you may come to the attention of noble patrons and develop a national reputation.
30 Extraordinary performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d6 gp/day. In time, you may draw attention from distant potential patrons, or even from extraplanar beings.

A masterwork musical instrument gives you a +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks that involve its use.
Action: Varies. Trying to earn money by playing in public requires anywhere from an evening’s work to a full day’s performance. The bard’s special Perform-based abilities are described in that class’s description.
Try Again: Yes. Retries are allowed, but they don’t negate previous failures, and an audience that has been unimpressed in the past is likely to be prejudiced against future performances. (Increase the DC by 2 for each previous failure.)
Special: A bard must have at least 3 ranks in a Perform skill to inspire courage in his allies, or to use his countersong or his fascinate ability. A bard needs 6 ranks in a Perform skill to inspire competence, 9 ranks to use his suggestion ability, 12 ranks to inspire greatness, 15 ranks to use his song of freedom ability, 18 ranks to inspire heroics, and 21 ranks to use his mass suggestion ability. See Bardic Music in the bard class description.
In addition to using the Perform skill, you can entertain people with sleight of hand, tumbling, tightrope walking, and spells (especially illusions).

As I read this I am struck by this quote

Bardic Music: Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance. Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic music ability until he acquires the needed ranks.

Don't forget that Bards will get a very high lore score as well from their bard levels.

Personally the idea of an epic storytelling bard would be cool.

[Ali Akabba]

Thanks for the answer, Ring.

Rangers must have a nature patron deity to cast Ranger spells.

Are you sure? I know this for a fact in another server, but I haven't found this rule written anywhere here. Here is what is found at the server's homepage, under Server Rules and Guidelines - Class Specific Rules:

Rangers should be of an alignment appropriate to the teachings of their deity or spirituality. Any ranger that falls from such an alignment will be told by a DM that he/she no longer be allowed to use their divinely given ranger spells, and will give you a token which will strip your powers.

Game Funtion Change: The ranger will be unable to keep a panther or a boar until he has reached level 9, and will be unable to keep a dire wolf or bear until he has reached level 12.

There's no explicit mention of the need of a nature deity, hence my doubt.

He can (if you take other classes) cast arcane spells.

Yes, of course. My question was about the divene spells given by the ranger class itself, if I didn't make it clear.

Don't forget that Bards will get a very high lore score as well from their bard levels.

Personally the idea of an epic storytelling bard would be cool.

Yes, high Lore and no Perform seems an interesting possibility, if a bit radical. He would know many stories, but not be good in telling them, heh.

Let me put it this way: Perform is a skill, among many others the bard has as available choices. The distribution of skill points is, generally speaking, a very personal thing that allows the players to tailor their characters to their particular tastes. However, the stereotype for the bard class revolves exactly about the use of this particular skill. So, neglecting the Perform skill leads to a whole different approach to the bard class.

Compare a bard with no ranks in Perform to a rogue/sorcerer of the same level, and you'll see that there is more to the bard class than just the Bardic Song. I'm talking about seeing the bard from the "jack-of-all-trades but master of none" angle, instead of from the "artist" angle. Or, in other words, taking the bard class as a set of skills, not as a profession. My concern is if, by taking this route, it would be seen as playing the bard in a "wrong" way (in the same sense that a druid or a paladin can be played wrongly). In short: must all bards be artists? Is an artistic talent of some sort such a core element of the class, that it would feel wrong to throw it away? My personal view is that no, it wouldn't be wrong; after all, Perform is just a skill and the bard is the jack-of-all-trades. But I have an intuition that this could be polemical - hence, the question.

[archimedes 13]

I would think that perform is pretty tied to the Bard character (in a similar way that animal empathy is tied to druids/rangers). Like Ring mentions, a Bard doesn't have to be a singer, but all of those 'bard' activities would involve a perform skill (an epic poet would perform his work etc. etc.). A general "jack-of-all-trades" could be accomplished by taking levels of rogue (which, obviously is not the same as what you're trying to create). The bard seems to be a very specific kind of "jack-of-all-trades" character (though that seems like an oxymoron!)

As for Ranger...not sure - it would seem that a Ranger would have to follow a Nature diety. But I'm not sure what constitutes a Nature diety (is it having the 'plant' domain?). For what it's worth - http://lwnsql.lfchosting.com/EdCorellon.html - lists rangers as followers of Corellon Larethian - but perhaps this has something to do with being an elvish god?

[Cafall]

1) In order to cast spells, is a ranger restricted to worshiping deities associated to nature?

This rule is kinda hard to find because it's buried in the FRCS. But according to the books, Forgotten Realms rangers have to worship a nature-related deity, or else they can't cast ranger spells. I can't find the exact list though. There are lots of arguments for your ranger worshipping someone uncommon, so I'd suggest just talking to a DM about it.

In regards to rangers' level of devotion: I remember reading something about what rangers were like back in earlier editions, and they sounded pretty hardcore. A ranger was a kind of "divine knight" devoted to a cause bigger than himself, whether it was a god, a stretch of mountains, or a lord. Their job was to protect and further that cause -- by banging around the wilderness of course. Apparently, one class feature was a vow of poverty where they had to throw away any possession they couldn't carry, and they were required to have a Good alignment. I have heard them compared to paladins in their devotion to a cause, although they're more flexible about the cause itself.

But it's up to older players to back that up or shoot it down. I've never seen the older rules. And rangers' conceptions have changed since, gotten more flexible and maybe a little watered-down. There are few defining principles for a 3rd-edition ranger beyond being able to track things and run around the woods. So that presumably gives you the freedom to play down the "divine knight" side of the ranger if you want to.

[Cafall]

Yes, high Lore and no Perform seems an interesting possibility, if a bit radical. He would know many stories, but not be good in telling them, heh.

I have to wonder about this Perform skill debate. Presumably if he is a bard that knows epic stories, he'd tell them often enough to get better at it. It wouldn't make sense not to throw a few points into Perform.

I always kind of saw the jack-of-all-trades as a performing artist's wide-ranging interests or something of that nature, like a method actor's compulsion to experience new and weird things. Without the artist part, there's not a lot left to the class.

If you're after arcane spells and not the whole performing schtick, maybe sorcerer would be something to consider after all. They're the best parts of bard spellcasting, and they seem pretty roguish to me. Unless you're looking for class skills that better complement the ranger's.

[Algernon's Ghost]

Found this in the FR campaign setting:

Faerunian rangers do not have to choose a patron deity until they reach 4th level and acquire divine spellcasting ability. Without a patron deity, a ranger cannot cast spells. Many rangers choose a patron deity before then, but others start by devotion to the ranger's way of life instead of to one of the gods. Rangers and druids have similar preferences for deities, although some rangers with odd interests, such as hunting undead, choose different patrons.

So, I'll say you just need a deity that makes sense in order to cast spells.

[Ali Akabba]

Thanks, AG; this settles the point. I'll probably go with a half-elf, follower of Corellon Larethian.

As for the bard issue, I guess it's simpler to take sorcerer levels and avoid complications... even if the bard is tempting.

[Ali Akabba]

Hmm. Well, since I started this discussion, it doesn't hurt to tell what I decided to do with this idea, after thinking for a while.

I realized that what I don't like about the bard stereotype is that it looks too much like a buffoon to me. The person who likes to be the center of attention, as a character trait; a jester, a joker, a fool. But it doesn't have to be like that. In the present case, if he were a half-elf, devout of Corellon Larethian, with ranger as well as bard levels, then he could simply be somene with a deep interest in the elven history and art, including poetry and music (elves are tipically tied to nature, so the ranger aspect fits well, too). Perhaps, since we're talking about a half-elf, taking seriously the elven traditions, and elven culture in general, could be a means of strengthening his bond to the elven people, an effort to be accepted as one of them. And there is nothing necessarily clownish about that. He could, as an artist, be as refined as elven art is supposed to be.

I think I was struggling to find a way to avoid what I percieive as a clownish side of bards, which I personally don't like. I guess I found it, now.

So, he'll be a ranger/bard.

Thank you all who wrote here, it was helpful.

And now that I made peace with Perform, I feel tempted to make this guy with no Animal Empathy...

[sarah petite]

The complete nature deity list is in the Faiths and Pantheons. Page 90 to be precise.

[Ali Akabba]

Thanks for the information, SP.

I checked, and Corellon Larethian is not in this list. *sighs* But that's alright, I could simply ignore the ranger spells and just never use them. Unless our DM team rules otherwise, considering AG's post above.